Craps Buy Or Place
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If I understand the arguments in a number of other threads, I think it boils down to,- The term ‘Buy bets’ refers to a number of betting options on the craps table which bear a slight resemblance to the place bets, which we cover in a different article. However, where the two bet types differ makes all the difference.
- The pass line and don’t pass wagers are the most commonly placed bets in craps and also the most straightforward. A shooter will usually have to place one of them before making their come-out roll; and in some casinos, players must make one of them if they also want to place other wagers.
- As you can see here, the payouts are slightly lower than true odds. The house edge for place 4 and place 10 is 6.67%, the house edge for place 5 and place 9 is 4.00% and the house edge for place 6 and place 8 is a very nice 1.57%. I tried to provide a screenshot of different place bets below.
- The Buy bet on 6 and/or 8 will usually be worse than the Place bet on the same numbers for craps players who would not like to place excessive bets. Of course, experts could not make a direct comparison by using the same bet amount, but there are enough differences between the Place and the Buy bet on the numbers in question.
If I have stated this incorrectly, please let me know, so I can reword it.
I agree that over a player's lifetime, that is the most likely outcome, but it is not the only possible outcome. If I was certain that was the only outcome, I would have stopped playing craps years ago. maybe ;-)
In many of the sessions I have played, I have had little success with CB. It has usually led to losses for me, even though the math says it is the best way to play. Therefore, I have 'tried' to make the point that making the CB/odds does not guarantee that the next time you play craps you will fair better than someone who is buy/place betting.
So, help me devise a fair challenge, where a Place/Buy bettor and a Come bettor can play at the same table, during the same rolls, with a wager to be settled by which bettor has the bigger BR at the end of the session.
I will meet you at the craps table. Same starting BR. Opportunity for an equal amount of bets to be wagered, during the same time frame. BR at the end of the session will determine the winner of the bet.
How do we determine the session length? Time? Number of Rolls? Number of unique shooters?
What would the rules need to look like for a fair challenge, on a $10 table (3-4-5x), vig on the win for the Buy 4,10? (If the challenge takes place in MS, then it would be vig on win for Buy 4,5,9,10)
Proposed Rules
- Both Players will make a Pass Line bet and take full odds. This is always mandatory for both players, and the amount of this bet never changes.
- The Come Bettor will place a $10 CB at every opportunity, and take full odds each time.
- The Place bettor will Place the 6/8 for $60, 5/9 for $50, and Buy the 4/10 for $35.
- Each bettor can take down their bets at any time, following craps rules (ie. base CB cannot be taken down)
- Each bettor can work their bets on the Come Out roll.
Pressing is a key component of the Place/Buy play. How do we create rules that keeps the potential total amount bet the same?
In the rule below, I am allowing the Place/Buy to go up what would be a $5 CB, with full odds, each time a number gets hit. This is not the way I would press, but I think it would be okay for this challenge.
- Each time a number has been hit, the Place Bettor can press their bet ( $20 on the 4/10, $25 on the 5/9, $30 on the 6/8).
But how do we allow the CB to be pressed? Obviously, it can only be pressed after the original CB for that number has been paid once, but that means the new $10 CB has already been placed. We could allow the CB player to increase the bet via a $5 w odds PUT bet, but that would negate the come out roll advantage of that extra $5. Allowing a CB of $15 before every CB number has been hit at least once, would potentially allow the CB to have a higher bet amount , since they could be putting up a $15 CB for the first time on a number that had not previously been hit.
I would not consider allowing the Come bettor to increase their bet at any time to be a fair rule, as a single $100 CB with odds would decide the outcome.
Is there any way to allow for pressing, yet keep the total amount wagered to be equal?
This challenge could be interesting, but the result won't mean a whole lot. If the table goes a certain way, the results would be slanted that way. What if there were a tremendous amount of 11's along with 7's hitting at the 'right' time? The pass line bettor could be making money when you're on the sidelines.
To allow for pressing, you could find a 10x or more table and restrict the starting odds to 345x but allow pressing after that.
I'll look for the results of this challenge, if it happens, but it'll mostly be just another story about experiences at the craps table.
This challenge could be interesting, but the result won't mean a whole lot. If the table goes a certain way, the results would be slanted that way. What if there were a tremendous amount of 11's along with 7's hitting at the 'right' time? The pass line bettor could be making money when you're on the sidelines.
To allow for pressing, you could find a 10x or more table and restrict the starting odds to 345x but allow pressing after that.
I'll look for the results of this challenge, if it happens, but it'll mostly be just another story about experiences at the craps table.
You are hitting on precisely my point.
Any time I make an example of how the place/buy bet could be a benefit, I get accused of cherry picking my example, and get ripped for it. I'm a big boy. I understand why that happens. Sure, a number of 11's could roll, when a point is ON, and I get crushed, $10 at a time. Of course, a number of 2,3,12 could roll too, and hurt the CB. Or, a number of shooters could go PSO, killing me. Then again, a number of shooters could throw single box numbers, and never repeat (which is generally my experience, and perhaps teddys based on his post), in which case I would benefit greatly. Holy cow, sounds like a real craps game! :-)
So, I say let's take it to a live game, with a separate wager riding on the outcome. It should be a great time! It certainly will be a lot of fun, regardless of whether I win or lose the wager, and you're right, it will make a great story.
MustangSally did key me into a certain point though. I was looking at units won, but was not really accounting to the fact that I generally was putting more money at risk during that same time. So somehow that has to be accounted for to make it a fair wager.
And that is the hard part of creating this challenge. How to structure it to keep the amount wagered equal.
To allow for pressing, you could find a 10x or more table and restrict the starting odds to 345x but allow pressing after that.
Interesting idea, but I have two thoughts:
1. This would only account for basically the first press by the Place/Buy bettor
2. Allowing the CB to increase their bets with a 'free' odds bet would skew the bet a bit, since the base come bet, paying 1:1 would remain low.
Nothing a 'lucky' shooter likes better than having ZERO chips in his/her landing zone. This is why I usually identify a 'lucky' shooter and play directly in the spot in front of his landing zone. I 'protect' his landing zone by not having Come Bets, Pass Line Bets or Odds. I make Place Bets; giving up a higher House Edge but the longer roll by the 'lucky' Dice thrower is worth it.
In my passive aggressive nature, I decided to stand directly in his way and took away his line of sight. He seven'd out pretty quickly. The only time I was happy to lose money at the craps table.
I had an a-hole shooter ask me to move my passline bet. It took me a minute to realize what was going on, nobody on my side of the table understood what he was talking about.
I had the same thing happen to me years ago and after making boatloads of money, I realized that it's important to a lot of shooters. I ALWAYS listen to shooters requests. On a second MONSTER roll this past weekend, the shooter 7'ed out when his Dice hit the Come Bet by this woman who kept on making Late Come Bets. The shooter was very upset!
Played close to 40 hours of Live Craps in 3 days. Played Come versus Place Bettors and compared the two. On monster rolls, Place Bettors made a KILLING. The biggest part of why I HATE Come Bets is it invites lots of Horn/Any Craps Bets during the 'ON' cycle of the game when shooters keep repeating 2,3,12's. It also totally compromises the landing zone for 'lucky' Craps shooters trying to avoid the Pass Line, Odds and Come Bets chips.
Nothing a 'lucky' shooter likes better than having ZERO chips in his/her landing zone. This is why I usually identify a 'lucky' shooter and play directly in the spot in front of his landing zone. I 'protect' his landing zone by not having Come Bets, Pass Line Bets or Odds. I make Place Bets; giving up a higher House Edge but the longer roll by the 'lucky' Dice thrower is worth it.
That is interesting, but it is also what I expect. If the Come Bettor places all the numbers initially, so that the first time the number is rolled, the CB is getting paid , and then uses that money as odds, then I would expect the CB and the Place bettor to come out the same (assuming equal amounts are being played). But, therein lies the difference! In my experience, I see the Place bettors pressing their bets, putting much more money into play. The Come Bettors may press their CB, and odds, but most of the time they just keep playing the same amount. So, if the 7 out takes a while, the Place bettor has gained some serious rack, but also loses a boatload of money left on the table at the 7-out.
I have decided the Come Bet strategy works best overall, as long as the Come Bettor is not Placing anything across. The CB loses a lot less on those shooters who only make 0 or 1 point, and throw 1 box number. And if you get that one shooter that throws the same box number 3x and then 7 outs, the Come Bettor makes out much better than the Place Bettor. While they both win almost the same amount on the 3 box numbers, the Place bettor has a much bigger loss on the 7 out.
That is the piece that I was missing for the longest time. I was looking at the money won (especially on the good to monster rolls) and the Place bettor absolutely kills the Come Bettor (as you also noted). But all the other shooters results in a bigger loss for the Place bettor, and thus leads to a higher chance of a greater loss.
But, I don't play craps for 6 hours hoping to break even. I am looking to win 3 or 4k, so I am willing to play the higher risk game. Give me 2 good rolls in that time, and I will hit my win goal.
Which leads me to the title of this thread.
I would be surprised if any of the staunch Come Bet strategists would be willing to put up their money for this challenge. One good shooter and the Place bettor would win the challenge going away.
{losing} a boatload of money left on the table at the 7-out.
Piling up that boatload and losing it is the bane of the Come bettor.
When I have made money with Come bets it has exclusively been when the money failed to pile up but instead only one or two numbers are covered. The shooter hits a number and I notice I have to replace it, and this happens again and again.
Tough duty, having to make the Come bet again when the damn shooter keeps rolling the number !! [g]
In reality its just as much 'your' money as if you increase your Come Bet.
Its a matter of waiting for a humungous roll wherein six and eight keep hitting but that shooter somehow stays away from Seven. Its not much fun on a choppy Point Seven Out table.
Understanding the Craps odds and bets that you can place is vital to ensuring you don’t lose all your money or embarrass yourself in a live game.
You might hear people shouting all types of lingo and vernacular terms such as “Horn Bets” or “Lay 10” which often confuse or put off even the biggest casino degenerates.
Craps Buy Or Place Bet
Thankfully, the rules of Craps are actually quite simple even if it takes time to learn the jargon. Make sure to read all information on this page, before You play craps for money.
We can predict the odds of any particular number coming up on a roll and why the craps rules are made how you will see.
For example: the odds for you to roll a 4 on your next roll are 11 to 1.
You can figure this out by taking the number of ways a four can be made with two dice (with a one and a three, a pair of twos, or a three and a 1) compared to the number of combinations that two dice can make, which is 36.
So we have a 3 in 36 chance, or 1 in 12 chance that a 4 will come up on any given roll. To express these odds as ‘against’, you would say the odds against rolling a four are 11 to 1 (think of it as 11 non 4’s to one 4 for a total of 12 rolls). The calculation we’ve just done determines the ‘true odds’ of rolling a 4.
As many of you may know, the casino doesn’t like to pay back its players with ‘true odds’, it prefers to alter them.
Craps rules, like so many other casino game rules, pay back odds which guarantee the house a profit in the long run. Say for instance you were to place a bet on ‘any sevens’, meaning you’re betting that the next roll will be a seven.
The odds against hitting a seven on the next roll are 5 to 1 (you can calculate that out the same way we did for 4), which means that if you bet one dollar and win, you deserve to win 5 bucks, but the casinos only pay you 4.
Most bets in most games at the casino have been altered in this way. In fact, this is exactly the phenomenon that gives the casino a house edge in many situations.
We’ve covered all the major types of bets and odds you receive here.
Understanding Craps Odds
For instance, odds can be related either as 2-1 or 2 to 1, where a 1 credit bet returns 2 credits. In other words, 2 to 1 odds returns the original 1 credit bet and a 1 credit profit.
The Best Craps Bets
The best bets in craps are the pass line bet, taking the odds, the don’t pass bar, the come bet, and placing the 6 or the 8. Let’s look at each:
Pass Line
This is the most basic and popular of bets when playing Craps. It has one of the lowest house edges (1.41%) and it is very simple to place. Betting on the pass line bet or betting “with the dice” is the most common bet in craps and you will see many players or shooters choosing it.
A pass line bet requires you to place chips on the “Pass Line” section of the table. If the shooter’s come out roll is a 7 or 11, you win even money (1:1). However, if the come out roll is 2,3 or 12 (craps) you lose.
If any other number is rolled (4,5,6,8,9 or 10) it’s called the point. The shooter continues to throw the dice until he/she roles a 7 or the Point. If the point is rolled first, you win even money. If the 7 is rolled first you lose your bet.
Interestingly, in a game of Crapless Craps, the ability to lose a Pass Line bet to craps on a come out roll is removed – hence the name “crapless” craps. This improves your odds of winning by removing the house edge and increasing your expected value.
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Don’t Pass Line
You can also bet on the “Don’t Pass” line, which is basically when you are betting or laying the shooter on his first roll. This is simply the opposite of the pass line bet and is also known as betting against the dice.
To make this bet place your chips in the narrower section just beyond the pass line labelled don’t pass.
If the shooter rolls a 2 or 3 (Craps) than you win straight away (1:1 even money). If a 7 or 11 is rolled before the Point is scored you lose. A 12 is considered a Push (draw) and normally you can relinquish this bet.
If any other number is rolled (4,5,6,7,8,9 or 10) this is established on the point number. After this happens you’ll win your money back if a 7 is rolled before the Point number, and lose if a 7 comes first.
Taking the Odds
After the point has been established, you can make an additional bet known as Taking the Odds or Pass Odds. You are betting on the Point number being rolled before a 7. The pay out odds are normally displayed on the Casino craps table.
The odds vary for different numbers based on the likelihood of them being rolled.
Normally, the payouts are as follows:
- 4 pays 2:1
- 5 pays 3:2
- 6 pays 8 pays 6:5
- 9 pays 3:2
- 10 pays 2:1
The odds bet is the best bet you can make in the game of craps, because the house has no built-in advantage. Free odds bets are paid back at true odds, so when you’re making these bets the casino has no house edge whatsoever, it’s an even game!
Come Bet
This is similar to a Pass Line bet, but it is made after the point has been established (dealer button is ON). The next roll then becomes the Come Out roll for your bet and establishes your Point. The payout depends on the Point:
- 7 or 11 pays 1:1 (also known as a Natural)
- 2, 3, or 12 you lose your money (also known as Craps)
- If neither of the above is rolled then (4,5,6,8,9 or 10) becomes the point for your bet. If a 7 comes before your point is rolled again you lose. If your point is won however your payout depends on the Point.
Come Bet Payouts:
| Number | Payout |
| 4 | 2:1 |
| 5 | 3:2 |
| 6 | 6:5 |
| 8 | 6:5 |
| 9 | 3:2 |
| 10 | 2:1 |
Taking the Odds
This is similar to the Come Bet and has the same odds above (Come Odds). You can place this bet only after the point has been established. If the 7 is rolled before the point, you lose.
Laying the Odds
Opposite of Taking the Odds. This is a Don’t Pass Line bet which can be made only after the point has been established. If a 7 is rolled before the point, you win.
Laying the Odds Payout:
| Number | Payout |
| 4 | 1:2 |
| 5 | 2:3 |
| 6 | 5:6 |
| 8 | 5:6 |
| 9 | 2:3 |
| 10 | 1:2 |
Don’t Come Bet
Oppose of Come Bet. This is similar to a Don’t Pass Line bet, but it is made after the Come Out roll. To make this bet all you need to do is to put your chips in the area labeled “Don’t Come” on the layout. You lose on a 7 or 11, and win on a 2 or 3. 12 is a “stand-off.”
Here you win if 7 rolls before your “come-point” is repeated, and lose if the “come-point” is made before a 7 is rolled.
Place Bets
You can bet on specific point numbers. If your number is rolled before a 7, you win. If a 7 comes before your point number, you lose. You’re paid out according to the table below.
Place Bets Payout:
| Number | Payout |
| 4 | 9:5 |
| 5 | 7:5 |
| 6 | 7:6 |
| 8 | 7:6 |
| 9 | 7:5 |
| 10 | 9:5 |
Placing the 6 or 8
When you make a place bet you bet that one of the numbers 4, 5, 6, 8, 9 or 10 will be hit before a 7 is hit. You can make a place bet any time by throwing your chips on the table while telling the dealer ‘I want to place the 6’ or whatever number you want to place your bet for.
So, if the number you bet on is rolled before a 7 you win and you are paid as follows: 4 or 10 placed – 9:5 odds, 5 or 9 placed – 7:5 odds, 6 or 8 placed – 7:6 odds.
As you can see the best for you is to place a bet on 6 or 8, because these bets have the best odds and also they have a good chance of hitting.
If you get the feeling like you want to place the 4 or 10, you should buy them instead, because although there is a Vig (a fee for winning bets) on these numbers, the edge comes out in your favor, however slightly.
However, the pass line bet is still the best one with the best odds and in the long run you should stick with it.
Although you can technically place a place bet at any time, it is impossible for it to come into effect until the shooters point is set, therefore it is more acceptable to ask for this bet after the come out roll is over.
Craps table
Live Craps Games
Bets with Poor Craps Odds
Big 6/Big 8 Bet
Craps Buy Or Place
This is a Bet on a Big 6 or Big 8, put down after the point has been established. If a 6 or 8 is rolled before a 7, you win (1:1). This is a bet that you should not play because you can Place a bet on 6 or 8 and receive better odds.
Field Bets
Kind of what the name suggests, field bets are open to everyone who bets on the next number rolled. To place one you simple throw your chips into the table (as little chips as possible) and tell the stick man what you want. The payout for field bets:
- 3, 4, 9, 10, and 11 all payout 1:1
- 2 pays 2:1
- 12 pays out either 2:1 or 3:1 (depending on the casino)
Proposition Bets
Placed before any throw. The house edge on all of these bets are over 11%. Therefore, you should not bet these very often or you should hedge your bets when you do so.
You can bet on any number as follows:
- Betting on the next throwbeing a 2, 3 or 12 (Craps)
- Any Seven: Betting on the next throw being a 7
- Eleven: Betting on the next throw being an 11
- Horn Bet: Betting on the next number being a 2, 3, 11, or 12. The payout is determined by the number rolled
Proposition bets are those placed in the middle of the table layout, and those bets never have a good house edge. You should make these bets only for fun and to make your game more exciting.
So, here they are:
- With the “any seven” bet you’re betting the shooter will hit a 7 on the next roll. It has a horrible house edge of 16.67%. Never make this bet.
- With the “snake eyes” bet you’re betting the shooter will throw a two on the next roll.
- With the “yo eleven” bet you’re betting the shooter will hit an 11 on the next roll.
- With the “any craps” bet you’re betting the shooter will throw a 2, 3, or 12 on the next roll. It holds a house edge of over 11%
- With the “any three” bet you’re betting the shooter will throw a 3 on the next roll.
- With the “midnight” bet you’re betting the shooter will throw a 12 on the next roll.
- With the “horn” bet you’re combining the snake eyes, 3, yo 11, and midnight bets.
Hardway Bets
A Hardway Bet is also made regarding the outcome of the next die throw. A Hardway roll occurs when doubles are thrown with an outcome of 4, 6, 8 or 10.
For example: rolling a pair of threes would produce a “hard 6”. An Easy roll is produced when the same outcome is achieved, but without rolling doubles.
For the previous example, rolling a 4 and a 2 would produce an “easy 6”. For a Hardway Bet to win, the shooter must roll a double with an outcome of 4, 6, 8 or 10. The wager loses if either a 7 or any Easy number is rolled.
The Lay Bet
The lay bet is almost similar with the don’t pass and don’t come bets, because with this bet your are playing against the dice. You can make this bet at any time in the game and it can be placed on 4, 5, 6, 8, 9 or 10. A lay bet wins when 7 rolls before the number.
7 is more likely to come up than any other number so the casino requires you to wager more than you could win. This bet also requires a commission of 5% on average. If the bet is on 4 or 10 you get 1:2 odds, on 5 or 9 2:3 odds, on six or 8 5:6 odds.
The Buy Bet
When you choose this bet it means that you will buy numbers instead of placing them.
The numbers 4, 5, 6, 8, 9, 10 can all be bought but there are only two numbers that really make buy bets worthwhile and those numbers are 4 and 10 because they pay off better than the other numbers. You win if the buy number comes up before a 7 is rolled.
Craps Lay Buy Place
The odds are higher for a buy bet. 2:1 on a 4 or 10 buy, 3:2 for a 5 or 9, or 6:5 for a 6 or 8. Player pays 5% “vigorish” to get true odds on all numbers.
Depending on how much you bet, buying a bet can make you more money in the end even after accounting for the ‘vig’. The odds are only in your favor on a buy bet for a 4 or 10, so stick with the place bet on any others.
Craps Buy Bet
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